What are the changes you want to make?

Well, basically the Cuban problem is one of creation in the country rather than one of changes. Here it is as if we have been blocked for many decades. Our most serious problem is that the population is steadily increasing, while on the other hand the sources of work are not increasing. and to the extent that technology is being introduced in industry, and fewer workers are needed, our population is growing, and we find ourselves in a vicious circle which has no solution, with men who have no work and who therefore cannot consume, and our industry cannot develop if there are no consumers. We cannot compete with European industry in machinery or in manufactured products, nor with US industry. Our industry must be a consumer industry, principally for domestic consumption, and industry cannot develop if there is no one to buy. But how can we provide the people with employment if the country is not being industrialized? Our great problem is that of the hundreds of thousands of men who are without work.

Of what kind of industry are you thinking?

Well. . .

For example.

Mainly, food industry, textile industries, and also industries producing manufactured products for sale within the country. Our industry cannot basically hope to compete with foreign industry, and thus, it must be developed on the basis of the national consumption, producing the largest possible quantity of articles and merchandise for consumption domestically.

How much time do you think will be needed to develop this program?

Well, first of all I should say that our first step must be to create consumers. We have to create consumers so that a considerable percentage of the people will be consumers. Only on this basis is it possible to develop domestic industry, but then there is no way. . . Money is necessary.

Obviously. Yes, but first we need consumers, because even if we have the capital to establish the industries, these industries cannot be developed if we have no one to buy. It would be uneconomical. The first problem, is not even obtaining capital. The first problem, is not even obtaining capital. The first problem is finding consumers for industry, and then capital to establish these industries. But the main thing, the basic thing, is to have a population consuming industrial goods, and we will establish this consumer market through agrarian reform.

How much will the program cost?

Well, it depends, because we must distinguish between the program of public works which must be carried out in the country to satisfy many pending needs and the industrialization program. Everyone of the two or three hundred villages of greater or lesser importance in Cuba, all of them, have a whole series of tremendous needs which have never been met. You go to the villages and they ask for a school center, for a hospital, for a sewage system, for paved streets, for an aqueduct, for schools, for health facilities, for street cleaning trucks, for parks, for markets, for premises in which to sell goods, for projects of all kinds. For example, they ask for water purification plants. It is so great. . . I am making a survey of all the needs. I have asked all the active classes of the people to inform me of what they need and in what order they want the government to provide these things. I estimate that to meet all the needs of the villages of Cuba it will be necessary to invest at least two billion pesos in public works.

And where will the money come from?

Well, this money will come from within the country, from the increase in the state income to the extent that the standard of living in the country is raised. I think that within three years we will have duplicated the budget. Currently, we have produced a surplus of 40 million, no 25 million pesos in two months by increasing tax collection. The capital for industry, then, will be part domestic capital and part foreign capital. Now we do not want to obtain this capital on a basis of ... Basically we want capital loans which we will invest through the credit organs in the country, because if the capital comes from outside and is invested, we will have to pay interest, which is the cost of the capital. We will have to amortize the capital, and then when we have amortized it, we will remain with nothing. Do you understand?

Yes, of course.

We want capital lent to us, and then we will return the capital plus the interest, but when we have amortized the capital lent, the balance will remain for us here. We will amortize the capital for ourselves, not for others, so that we will pay for the capital, return it, and then our capital will remain here. Because otherwise it is obvious that we will have to amortize it once, twice, ten times. We will spend an entire lifetime amortizing it. This is as if you borrowed a hundred pesos and spent your entire life paying off the one hundred pesos plus interest.

Where will this capital come from?

It may come from the United States, from England, from France, from Germany.

From the governments of these countries or commercial banks.

It seems that there is abundant capital throughout the world currently, because we have had many offers of loans, of investments, particularly now that they see that the government is honest. On seeing that the government is honest they have great confidence. Also, we have decided to pay the pending debts, the old debts of the dictatorship, that is, we have not refused to honor them, do you see?

From what countries?

I would like to explain that the Batista dictatorship contracted debts totalling 1,200,000,000 pesos. We could have refused to pay them because that government was not legitimate, but we realized that this would hinder the economy of the country substantially, and that it was better to assume responsibility for this debt, which would create great confidence on the part of those who might be prepared to invest money, because since we have not refused to pay this debt, everyone is certain that they can invest here, that they can lend to us, and that no one will refuse to honor the debts under any circumstances, even if the government changes. Even if it changes it will not matter, because there has already been a substantial change and yet we have paid the debts.

What you want is loans rather than to sell shares?

Well, I do not mean to say that this will be an inflexible policy. We would prefer to obtain loans and pay them off, to pay for the capital and the interest, because in this way, when we have amortized the capital, it will remain for us here. When we have paid the debt we will have the factories and the industries. Otherwise, we would be paying for these factories eternally. This would mean a constant outflow of exchange. You know that the problem of exchange is basic today for any people, and that the intelligent policy must be one which seeks to obtain capital, to pay the cost of it, which is interest, to repay this capital and then to have the factories, the industries, remain for us here in the country.

I have heard that some US firms in Cuba will be nationalized. Is this true?

There has been no talk of nationalization.

No?

There has been no talk here of nationalization. We have not planned this. We may reduce some concessions made by the Batista dictatorship, because they are burdensome and contrary to the economic interests of the country, but we have not talked here of nationalization, because our economic problems are of another nature, basically, involving undertaking agrarian reform and developing the country industrially. Where public services are concerned, the concessions have been distributed. For example, these services are rendered by various companies at various costs, various rates. This is a problem we must study and resolve, but we have not set forth the nationalization of any public service as a basic question here.

Can you explain the program for agrarian reform in a few words?

The problem of agrarian reform involves the following. Here in Cuba there are some two to three hundred thousand families who have no land, who are peasants. These peasants work two or three months a year during the harvest. The rest of the time they are unemployed. They do not have land to plant nor to produce the most necessary consumer items. Many of these peasants come to the city in search of work, increasing the number of the unemployed in the city. This peasant population is that which we must try to convert into a consumer population. The peasants account for more than half of the country, and we must convert these peasants into consumers. They never will become consumers as long as they have no land to produce what they need. Agrarian reform will increase the purchasing power of the peasants many times, and will be the basis on which Cuban industry an develop. We are thinking, since we have here the state land and private lands, of placing a maximum limit on the size of farms devoted to various types of production.

Sugar, for example?

We are studying this. I favor placing a limit on sugar, too. Now this would benefit the sugar mills, because there is a law here which years ago prohibited mill owners from raising their own cane. But what they did to get around this law was to make one company the owner of the sugar mill and another company the owners of the farm, although they were really the same. Thus, they got around the law. An industrialist must be an industrialist, not an industrialist and a farmer at the same time. The sugar mills cannot compete in the world today at a good price, because the cost of producing sugar is very high. It is high because the sugar mills are antiquated. If they are improved by modern technology, the result is that many workers are left without jobs, or can work only half the year. In other words, this would create a very serious problem.

The only way in which the sugar industry can be improved by technology is through agrarian reform, which will draw off from our industry the surplus personnel demanding work, do you understand? Technological change must come through agrarian reform. What will they lose? They will lose nothing, because they will have cane to mill, more cane to mill and better conditions for improving their machinery. As it was, there was a constant battle between the steadily increasing number of workers demanding jobs and of industry which had made absolutely no progress in the last 30 years. And it is an industry which cannot progress if it is not improved. Thus, agrarian reform does not involve any loss. We will pay indemnity for the land. If we do not have cash, and possibly we do not have enough to pay indemnity on all of this, we will pay it in bonds, bonds carrying the guarantee of an honest government, which can be sold on the stock market, which can be negotiated, bonds with interest over the shortest term possible.

I am now thinking, pending the option of individuals more expert than I in this subject, of issuing 10 or 15 year bonds, but negotiable, and then we will ask industrialists, planters, the great cane and livestock producers, to invest this in industry, because we are ready to give industry every guarantee provided there are high salaries.

How much will the agrarian reform program cost?

I cannot estimate this exactly now, because we will first have to decide on the maximum limit to be established, the lands to be segregated and the assessed value of these lands, but if we pay for them in bonds we can pay a better price than we could in cash. And also, this payment received in bonds, bonds guaranteed by the Cuban state, can be negotiated, just as the bonds of BANDES and the National Bank were negotiated. Cuban bonds are sold on the market and sold at a good price. In paying indemnity by means of bonds, what we are asking is that the indemnity be invested in industry here in the country. Do you understand? Thus what the landowners have to do is to become industrialists. And they can establish industries which will have a sure market and which will provide the solution to the problem of the sugar producers themselves. Because, I ask you, do you believe it is possible to live in this state of permanent agitation and conflict between the enterprises and the workers, in a conflict which is increasing?

I see. If Cuba depends for the most part on the sugar market, do you believe that this dependence should be reduced?

Well, it serves our purposes to sell it to the United States, and it serves its purposes to buy it from us, because it is a fact that in difficult moments, the United States has always had a substantial source of sugar in Cuba. It is in the interests of the United States to maintain this source, because sugar is a basic foodstuff in the United States and we produce it more cheaply than they. We could provide the American people with cheaper sugar than they are buying today, and yet the government makes them pay dear there because it is protecting certain sugar interests outside the country. If the land in the United States can produce wheat, if it can produce other things, subsidies are provided. We could benefit the American people by selling them all the sugar they want in the future, at a much lower price than they are paying today. Speak to the American people and tell them that we can. If it is true that on the one hand a completely artificial industry benefits certain farmers, we could benefit the entire American people by selling them sugar at less than they are paying today, and the Americans like sweets very much. We could provide them with all the sweets they want, and thus maintain excellent relations.

Because you see, the United States is such a rich country, so powerful industrially and agriculturally that what the trade with Cuba means economically in funds is a very small part of this great economic power, of this great wealth. It seems very egotistical for us when, for example, they threaten us with refusing to buy sugar when we speak of wanting to produce rice or oil to cut down on imports, because after all, what the United States will cease to earn from the sale of these things is only a millionth part of the wealth of the United States. Do you understand? There is no need for them to earn our enmity over a hundred or two hundred million pesos, which is what the purchases we make in footstuffs might total. We will always have to buy automobiles, radios, television sets. The United States does not depend on trade with Cuba. On the other hand, Cuba does depend on the foreign exchange we can save for industrial development. We are not asking the United States to give us dollars, we are not telling them "send us a billion pesos, as this will resolve all our problems." We are proposing matters in just terms. If we do not have our foreign exchange, if we do not develop the country industrially, what will happen to us? We will have chaos. If the revolution does not make these laws, it will lose its authority, its moral strength, its prestige. If this revolution does not act quickly, what we will have here is an inferno, a real inferno, because when there are a million or a million and a half people unemployed and there is no confidence in any one here, then what will come will be chaos.

We can continue to proceed with an ordered, studied, planned revolution. I have sometimes had to stop and say to the peasants: "No, do not occupy the land, because the land must be distributed in orderly fashion." We cannot produce large agricultural enterprises out of small divided ones, because this will not be economically profitable, and cannot be operated at low cost. We must replace one large enterprise with another, that is, uniting all the peasants in a large enterprise with another, that is, uniting all the peasants in a large enterprise, like a stockholding corporation, and then using expensive equipment and the best modern technology. Have you seen Bohemia recently? Bohemia has issued an appeal for a fund for me to administer. And to you know to what I am going to devote it? To tractors. All of this to tractors and irrigation and well equipment, all of it, and then we will establish the best technical conditions in the world in Cuba. We are going to buy the most modern equipment in the world for our agriculture, as good as those to be found in the United States, in that it produces two or three harvests a year because it is not so cold. With fertilizer, with irrigation, we can produce cheaper than the United States, because now the United States is producing corn cheaper than ours, only half the price, and rice cheaper than ours. And-why, despite the fact that they an only reap only one harvest a year? Why? Because they use the latest technology and produce at very low cost. Thus, we are going to reap two harvests using the same technology as the United States. We are going to produce very cheaply, do you see? I am going to invest all of this money in tractors, irrigation equipment etc. Then we will produce in the rural sector through great peasant cooperatives, to which the profits will be distributed. Some have already been established on lands which belonged to associates, to accomplices of Batista. One cooperative has been established and it is doing very well. There, they have an agricultural production cooperative and a consumer cooperative both. They have their own shop, the first to be built, and they had to raise prices 20% in order not to ruin the other shops there.

Speaking of sugar, if sugar sales to the United States dropped, this would affect Cuba considerably, would it not?

Yes. I believe it would. Certainly. But I do not see why sugar sales should drop. It would be unjust, because whenever the United States has had a difficult situation it has had a sure source of supply and raw materials in Cuba, and what the American soldiers like best is sugar, what any soldier likes best is sugar. It is not in the interests of the United States that Cuban sugar industry should be ruined. It would not benefit them.

What do you think about trade exchange between Cuba and the communist countries?

Well, I believe that if they purchase from us we should sell to them. Because what will happen if we have surplus goods and they purchase them? This is what the United States does and it is what England does. It is what all countries do.

Do you see any danger to Cuba in this?

In what sense?

Infiltration, or ....

There can be no danger, if we are doing what the Cubans want, if we are establishing social justice and resolving the material problems for all Cubans within an atmosphere of freedom and respect for the individual rights of freedom of the press, of thought, of democracy, of freedom to elect their own government leaders. The revolution we are promoting offers the people of Cuba what no social regime in the world is currently offering. Do you understand? No, I have no fear of any ideology. The idealogy of "26 July," which is the ideology of a system of social justice within the broadest concept of democracy, of freedom and of human rights, is the most beautiful promise which can be made to men. What have we to fear? We have nothing to fear.

As Prime Minister, you have a great responsibility. How are you going to organize the affairs of government? Will it be possible to delegate some of your responsibilities?

Well, you have seen that we have a number of ministers. They are very capable people. The Minister of Labor, the Minister of Economics, the Minister of Public Works. These are comrades who are very hard working, and what I am doing is to turn more over to them every day. If there is a proposal of loans for industry, I send it to the Minister of Economics, to the Minister of Agriculture. And every day I am giving more of my work to them, and I always consult them. I meet twice a week with them, and we discuss matters at length. Yes, I would like to have less responsibility. My work is considerable, because my function is administrative, but it is also political. I have to talk with the people, to guide them, to inspire them, to tell them to be calm and patient. It is I who handle the problems with the people.

What is your view of the United States Naval Base at Guantanamo?

This is a problem which has not been discussed here, which has not been touched upon. There have been some minor conflicts arising from the fact that the sailors are allowed to come ashore and go to Guantanamo, for example, every week on leave. Obviously, it is economically desirable that they do so because they spend money. But there are thousands of sailors, and they go to certain entertainment places. Often they do not know their way around, and they go to the homes of decent citizens and try to gain entry. Do you understand? It is a problem of certain conflicts which occur while they are on leave, on weekends. Problems develop between them and ordinary families, because many sailors get lost or drunk and go to the wrong place. At another time, in the Batista era, this had no effect because everyone tolerated these things calmly. But now, now such things have an adverse effect, because the people see the reform intent of the revolution, and all that was evil, all that disgusted them, is now clear to them, do you see? The understand it, and this is a time when these things can create resentment. I am particularly concerned about avoiding even the slightest incident, you understand. Thus, where these visits are concerned, I would like to be delayed as long as possible, particularly in the zones where there have been problems, such as Guantanamo and Santiago, because I hope that when all the feelings are calmed, when everything is in order, these visits can be made without conflicts of this sort, because there is no animosity in the people, there is no animosity against them, you see? But just now, any small incident might be of importance.

Thus it seems that there is no problem as to whether or not the United States will continue to occupy the base under the current arrangement.

This question has not been studied. We have other problems, other problems which concern us more. The problems which concern us are of an economic and social nature. If we can maintain friendly relations with the United States -- trade, political and diplomatic relations -- then I see no danger of conflict.

Do you look favorably on the possibility that Cuba might serve as a base for military operations against the Dominican Republic or perhaps other countries.

Well, I will tell you what I think about this. We have a job to do here. We are trying to do a job. What concerns me basically -- I will answer with all frankness -- what concerns me now is the problems of Cuba, the work which we must accomplish. Now then, this does not mean that one is so egotistical as to begin to be indifferent to the pain of other Latin American peoples. Trujillo is a threat to Cuba. Trujillo is a threat to Latin America. His agents are murdering his enemies outside their territory, murdering individuals such as Galindez and Requena in the United States, murdering his enemies in Cuba, in Mexico, everywhere. When I made a trip to Venezuela, and asked at dawn, when we were near our destination, what coast lay below, I was told that it was the Columbian coast. I asked the pilots why we were there, and they told me that the route to Venezuela passed very close to Santo Domingo, and they wanted to avoid it for fear that one of Trujillo's planes would cause trouble. Trujillo is the kind of Caribbean and Latin American dictator who has no respect for the laws of other countries. Trujillo respects the law of no country. You see, if we wanted we could find another Batista anywhere. Here there are men who would willingly go to kill Batista in the United States, in Mexico, wherever he might be. However, we would never agree to or promote or support any action outside our national territory, because we respect the laws of other countries. Trujillo does not. Trujillo has established a continental dictatorship.

And in a certain sense, it is logical that a democratic government, that the democratic Cubans should view at any movement against Trujillo with sympathy, but we would not intervene directly in the problems in Santo Domingo. Now here in Cuba exiles from any country can come and live, and naturally, in Cuba as in Venezuela, I know that the Dominicans in particular have great sympathy. I am not going to persecute them. If they act within the law, if they act discreetly and do not cause trouble they will not be molested. Naturally, we want to avoid conflict, but this does not mean that we are going to persecute them. I know that exiles, whenever they may be, try in every possible way to do something for their country. When I was in Mexico, I was there thinking of returning to Cuba. And when the exiles were in the United States, they were thinking of returning to Cuba. And whenever they are, they try to avoid the police and to do what is necessary to return and liberate their country. In some places, they are persecuted with a passion because the dictators pay money for this.

When will elections be held?

Well, no exact date has yet been fixed, but the plan of the government is to hold them as soon as possible. I can tell you the following: there is talk of holding them in two years, and this is the government plan, to hold elections in two years. In general in these countries, when there is a revolution, or a coup d'etat rather than a revolution, it is in the interests of the government leaders, since they do not have the support of the people, to postpone the elections as long as possible with a view to staying in power. Our case is the reverse. We have 90 some percent of the people supporting us, and we cannot fear the people in any elections. That is to say, we cannot fear losing elections, because we are certain that we will win. But what does concern me a little is the possibility of spending considerable energy on politics at a time when we are reorganizing the state, demanding much correction and much discipline, do you understand? If we nominate people to run for office now, who will they be? I do not want a good government official to run for senator. Let him continue to do his job. It worries me a little to rally all the people who are working in public administration, and who are advancing greatly, to engage in politics. I am a little afraid of this. It is the only thing which concerns me somewhat about politics, do you see? I am afraid we will waste our energy on the wrong thing.

Will the 26 July movement be organized as a political party?

Yes, it will.

In the coming elections, will all the political parties, including the Popular Socialist Party, be allowed to participate?

If they meet the requirements established by the law and the electoral legislation.

If you are asked to be one of the candidates for the presidency, will you accept?

I don't know. In this matter I will do as the leadership of the 26 July movement decides. However, I believe that the movement has strength enough to win on its own. The 26 July movement does not need political coalitions to win elections.

Final question. As you must have heard ...

I will tell you this, because I do not want to make the type of statements suggesting that my attitude is one of division. Just now we are not considering problems of a political nature, in the country. I want to devote all my efforts to completing a revolutionary task, conscious that it will be consolidated by the 26 July movement, a democratic movement, a revolutionary movement, a movement with strength in the Cuban people.

As you must have heard, there have been rumors to the effect that Major Raul Castro and Major Ernesto Guevara are communists and communist sympathizers. There are the rumors. Would you like to make a comment on this?

Well, I will tell you my view of this, and it is that here in Cuba, there has always been a very conservative political tradition, and there was no revolutionary hope. Many young people inclined toward the left, rather than sympathizing with the existing traditional political parties. When the 26 July movement which is a truly revolutionary movement, which wants to establish the economy of the country on a just basis, which is a revolutionary movement and at the same time a democratic movement with broad human content, was established in Cuba, its ranks were swelled by many people who previously had no political alternative and who inclined toward parties with radical ideas. The 26 July movement is one with radical ideas, but it is not a communist movement, and it differs basically from communism on a whole series of basic points. And those in the 26 July movement, both Raul and Guevara, like all the others, are men who agree very closely with my political thinking, which is not communist thinking.

They are not communists?

Obviously. The thinking of the 26 July movement is not communist thinking, and I can tell you the trends. Let us see, possibly in the United States you have many people with leftist ideas active in the democratic parties, and probably you heard the term communist from them because there was an article in favor of the Cuban revolution, and they want a US senate investigation there.

No, I do not know about this.